In all the thirty dot dot dot years that I’ve been in business I’ve never let a client take over a job – I’m too controlling. But that recently changed. A client that I’ve been working with for many years was redoing an apartment in New York that I originally did 9 years ago. (I’ve worked with them on many other projects over the years.) We estimated the job, presented it and then the client said “Oh I know a contractor, I can get it cheaper, I’ll hire my people”.
I still got paid my commission, but lost control of the project. The client was talking to the contractor directly, changing things without discussing it with me and became a real loose canon. The reality was that the contractor the client hired turned out to be horrible. but by that time it was like a stampede of horses – with the client changing things, going out and shopping it and completely taking over the job.
The result? It has been time-consuming and everything is taking twice as long to complete. The client has not allowed the job to be done and anytime somebody is judging a finished product before actually finishing it, they are not seeing the completed thought.
My lesson? All the things that I’m always preaching “Don’t do, Don’t do” I’ve gone and done. So ‘Mea Culpa’, I’m paying the price for not listening to my own advice. This project has been a nightmare and has driven a real wedge between me and one of my favorite clients. Something that I for sure never want to repeat again. Has this ever happened to you?
#1 by scone on May 12, 2010 - 1:02 pm
Sort of. I’ve had clients who did the “death by a thousand cuts” routine. “let’s change this, and let’s add that, and can’t you do this instead.” And then going over my head to the vendors, changing what I told the vendors to do. It doesn’t work. a job can have only one boss. (This is why it’s so difficult for architects and interior designers to work on the same job, too.)
#2 by EM on May 12, 2010 - 2:00 pm
Egads. Mix yourself a drink.
#3 by Karena on May 12, 2010 - 2:06 pm
I am sure this was exhausting, and you have been kicking yourself, lesson learned though!!
Yes a cocktail will help although you are probably ahead of me on that!
Karena
Art by Karena
#4 by Tina Steele Lindsey on May 12, 2010 - 2:21 pm
Regretfully there is always that one time someone gets the upper hand. You are right, something can be lost in it (such as a previously good working relationship.)
What is gained is far superior to what is lost; the ability to see warning signs ahead of time.
Relationships can often be repaired, and marvelously your good reputation will easily override this unfortunate situation.
#5 by Judith Thibaut Interiors on May 12, 2010 - 2:32 pm
Oh Vincente –
Sadly, every word of this post hits home. This dynamic has become so prevalent in today’s world … . . especially in smaller towns where everyone has a friend who’ll give them a special deal -and then they shop the internet to get a better price on
everything you specify. In the end, the job is so botched I would secretly pray that the client would NEVER tell anyone I had anything to do with the project!
Judith
#6 by EM on May 12, 2010 - 2:50 pm
Why is shopping the internet so bad?
#7 by Laurel on May 12, 2010 - 4:04 pm
Shopping on the internet is fine if one has not hired a professional to help them. Let’s say that I have specified a piece of furniture from source A and I have added my 30% markup to the net price of that item and the required shipping charges to bring the piece into their home and put it in its rightful place. In the meantime my client googles Source A and finds that there’s a company who will sells products from Source A and finds the exact same item (with “free” shipping which means that a huge 16 wheeler will dump their bookcase at the bottom of their driveway in a BIG box!) and the price is $100 lower and so the (piggy) client just goes ahead and ORDERS that piece of furniture that I have spent 6 hours researching and subsequently specified and THEN tells me that they absolutely love what I have found for them and thank you so much, but they found it for less on the INTERNET and so they ordered it from that INTERNET company which is probably a defunct furniture store that is operating out of their home and working on a volume basis.
aaarrrgghhhh…………….
That is what is wrong.
#8 by Laurel on May 12, 2010 - 4:07 pm
PS: This very rarely happens to me as most of my clients are very lovely and honorable people. But, it has happened.
#9 by Terri on May 12, 2010 - 4:18 pm
I am working on a project that I took my client to a couple of showrooms to look at flooring. I had already spend time in the showrooms pre-selecting products that I wanted to show the client in which the sales person spent a great deal of time with me and subsequently with the client as well. The showroom allowed us to borrow the showroom flooring sample so that the client could show her husband.
I received an email from her saying that the contractor was going to borrow the sample so that he could shop for a better price on it.
I immediately informed her that I had no problem searching out other sources and products, but that my relationship with my vendors and resources is very important to my business and that for them to allow me to borrow their showroom samples is what I consider a privilege… not to be abused. The finished project is only as good as our resources, and we must protect them.
It is an ongoing (and tiring) process of educating the client on how saving costs (without knowing the difference of what they are getting) can end up being costly on many different levels.
#10 by EM on May 12, 2010 - 4:50 pm
Do you work with your clients to establish guidelines before you start work? Like, I would have no problem spending $10,000 on a custom sofa, but if a designer suggested those ceramic garden seats for accents I’d want to buy them on craigslist for $5 apiece. Also, if a client finds out that there was a significant price difference on an item, do you address that fact? That is, if I found out that my designer charged me the most for many items that were readily found cheaper (the SAME item, btw) I wouldn’t want to use them again, or recommend them to others. This goes back to my gripe about markups. I’d pay a huge sum of money to a designer for their talent. I cannot substitute that. But, I have sweat equity and antique dealer friends of my own.
PS – Significant = 25%+ higher.
#11 by Parker Bennett on May 12, 2010 - 5:42 pm
1) Transparency is key, everyone can find out what Net is nowadays.
2) We bill time into finding/researching/sourcing per our contract, so it all evens out in the end.
3) I say throw the client a bone if they can’t help but shop around for a garden stool. I’m too tired to fight those battles. We try to focus on the creative vision and that’s what we charge for. Commissions on FF&E is whipped cream.
Totally been there, and it’s frustrating and offensive, but I believe those hurt feelings come from our own FEAR – that the client doesn’t trust, will leave, that we’ll lose control, etc. etc.
#12 by EM on May 12, 2010 - 5:51 pm
Parker, you are right. I do have fear. I wish the shelter magazines and/or the design centers would do more to promoting the cost of the lovely rooms. It’s easy to find out the price of a sofa, but near impossible for a layman (me) to calculate a custom Stark carpet, window treatments, etc. Also, I’ve seen many designers do so-so work, but if certification and/or eduction is no barometer of talent, what to do?
Also, does anyone remember a feature that Architectural Digest ran several years ago about 1 room for $5,000? It was fantastic, namely because I could associate a budget with a finished product. To the best of my recollection, they usually featured young people in their first NYC apartments.
#13 by todd haley on May 12, 2010 - 5:57 pm
been there. done that. never a good scene. i would have asked the client if they would like to do their own dental work too ? i mean why not – it’s just as painful
#14 by Laurel on May 12, 2010 - 5:58 pm
Yes, we definitely discuss guidelines/budget, etc… before I’m even hired and it is written into my contract and also I explain to them verbally as there are a few unavoidable “gray areas”. 97% of the time, I don’t ever have an issue. I also won’t take on a job if I sense that a client is going to make my life miserable. (trust your instincts–it isn’t worth it!)
Now, If they want to handle part of the job on their own, but that is understood, upfront, I’m totally cool with that.
I understand what you mean and sometimes, I will do my own internet search to see what they are seeing. Unfortunately, this has become part of what we have to deal with. The online sources work on a very low margin and make their money through sheer volume. If I am able to get the same product, DIRECTLY from the supplier, then yes, I can be competitive.
And occasionally, a client will do something piggy as in #9. I have a friend who I went to design school with 20 years ago, and she has had frequent such episodes. Sometimes, clients don’t understand their boundaries as clients.
#15 by Gary Nelling on May 12, 2010 - 6:17 pm
Vincente – Did your client give you a signal at the beginning that things were going to be different this time? Was there an opportunity to be firm about how you do projects or gracefully decline? Perhaps the recent seismic economic shock changed his attitudes.
I think in general one must distinguish between the clients for whom quality and convenience are paramount, who want their designer’s control, and those for whom budget is paramount, who don’t. I’ve helped people under the second scenario who really couldn’t afford to do otherwise, and they were thrilled with the results (which were just OK), because it was better than they could have done entirely by themselves. In hindsight, it wasn’t a good use of my time because it didn’t lead to better work. In your position, I would avoid it, though that’s easy for me to say since I don’t have a staff.
Even though the economy is recovering, I think it will take a while for the psychic shock to wear off this time. I think it’s important to understand and answer their anxiety. Perhaps marketing our ability to shop for price AND quality could keep us in the game and the control where it belongs. – Gary
#16 by Susan on May 12, 2010 - 9:25 pm
#17 by Loren on May 12, 2010 - 10:50 pm
Frustrating, particularly in this economy. I am at my wits end with people thinking that they have put together a project after I have schlepped, lumbered, and labored to “fifty-’leven” to-the-trade sources to specify the items that meet their needs, and they have the perception that they have designed the room themselves and start shopping the project. *ANNOYED*
#18 by Irene Turner on May 12, 2010 - 11:43 pm
Yes, this has happened to me…especially these days when everyone seems to want to spend less then quoted. In regards to an individual piece that they are buying, I have overcome this by stating in my letter of agreement, that everything I have specified I receive my consulting fee for, whether they buy it or I do. This get’s signed off on at the very beginning. As far as contractors go, I’d rather not get involved there if I don’t have to…I get paid separately for the design and they can take it from there…if I have to I will, and charge a percentage. As far as architects go…I haven’t figured that one out yet, any ideas?
#19 by Victoria on May 13, 2010 - 1:05 am
Yes is has hapen to me, it’s ugly and not pleasant, but when you neede the job badly you go along and make the best of it…
But I have to say it was more along the lines of changing my design and color scheme, after it was all agreed upon the client went to the paint store and changed most with the help of the store clerk…
When I came to the apartment I almost fainted…all other planning therefore fell apart too and I had to start over. For no extra cost!!! It was I take it or loose all!Absolute ignorance and disregard.
These people were older and absolutely not used to worrk with a designer, so it was a year of pulling my hair out!
My lesson: NO MORE jobs like that! The expectations are clearly defined and I take money were money is due. Unplanned changes are ALL extra!
I rather do my artwork…
I am surprised they did this to you…but it looks like there is a new trend..
DIY attidude has been nursed by all those design shows.! I can do that as much is big among middle class people in my neighborhood of Westchester!
Most of these places look like little Pottery Barn stores, sprinkled with Ethan Allen…
Arghhh!!!
#20 by Caroline on May 13, 2010 - 6:14 am
I’ve never had a client completely take over a project and start ordering things on their own without consulting me first… but I have had clients who hire me but are slow to warm up to my advise, suggestions, etc and want to play is “safe” with everything. Vicente, I’m curious to know if you tried having a conversation with your client. If so, how did you approach her and what was the end result?
#21 by Gerardo Ayala on May 13, 2010 - 6:20 am
It’s clients that kept me from choosing interior design as a career 10 years ago! But, I’ve returned to it, as a hopefully much more patient and much, much more confident person. In some ways, it is nice to know that this happens even to the people at the top of this profession.
#22 by makoto on May 16, 2010 - 4:49 pm
Slightly different view of this – I am the vendor caught in the middle between an indecisive client and an unreachable (for me and the client) designer. The client found us on the internet and insisted that our product be used, the designer “doesn’t understand why her client can’t get something local and needs our stuff”. I get chewed out trying to help the project along when our pricing information is on our site. We don’t sell wholesale, work directly with our clients and sometimes wonder how some designers survive when they are so inept with dealing with their clients, badmouth their clients to us, and have to be tracked down when it comes to paying. I’ve worked with many good designers that were happy that we were able to be helpful and give them exactly what they/their clients need and want ……but right now we are dealing with this “project from hell”………and want out!
#23 by Robin on May 17, 2010 - 1:00 am
Interesting and timely post, Vicente. Irene, I appreciate your forthrightness and insightful thought about writing what you receive your commission on in your letter of agreement.
I recently met twice with a potential client in my showroom who wanted me to design his kitchen, two bathrooms and specify flooring, paint and such for his home. Before he would sign my contract he wrote me:
“What I would like you to do is to propose your fee to provide the designs and specs for the first and second floor remodel as outlined in the scope. I want your fee to be a fixed lump sum in exchange for providing these designs to a level of detail that I can competitively bid out the construction. I also want you to list the approximate schedule/time frame the design will take and indicate at which points we will get together to select materials and review concepts.
I also want to understand the financial relationship with purchasing the cabinets through your manufacturers. In your proposal, I want you to list the cabinet manufacturers you represent. I also want you to provide the details around the discount you receive off their retail price, and what your markup on this discounted price is. I simply want to understand the costs I have to pay in order to receive complete specs and designs.”
I wrote back that my relationships with my vendors are proprietary and that I decline the project.
Amazing, what people feel they are ENTITLED to. Thank goodness that I am busy now and didn’t need this client. I guess it’s the old RED flag rule.
Your comments?
#24 by abbeyk on May 17, 2010 - 11:25 pm
Robin, my sister always says, it’s not that you ask a question, it’s HOW you ask a question. I agree this guy was a red flag. Good to trust your gut.
If customers value what you do, then price becomes less of an objection in the high end market. But this guy you discuss doesn’t sound like he values much of anything. It’s all about price for him. Or power and control. Or trust. Or something. Sometimes I wish I were a shrink so I could figure out why people do what they do.
I wonder if Bergdorf’s would explain their wholesale pricing to him? Just a question.
I recently took a plane to NYC and sat next to someone who made a fortune selling an early internet company. He told me about his wife’s relationship with their decorator. How much she had spent, how he thought mark up was crazy and how he felt the whole thing was just too expensive. I got the sense that he did not fully understood the services the decorator rendered. He did very much like the finished product though.
So I said: did anyone ever explain to you the business model for hourly plus markup? Since he was a business guy, I talked straight biz with him. Told him about chasing orders, how you hit a point where you cannot keep billing because clients just get upset, how trying to get some vendors to fix a problem can take incredible number of people hours and you hit a point where it just gets into rediculous billing so just cannot bill. I gave examples. That if in 2 years from now you call, I am goign to fix whatever problem you have with defective product, or install issues or whatever and not bill for that (other than if there are repair costs that are due to improper usage or something like that). That mark up is not just extra money we designers get. It covers our costs of fixing unforseen problems that happen with custom items. And it’s the cost of providing stellar service.
I do think the more transparent we can be the better. I am happy to explain what my net costs are. I am happy to provide receipts. I am also happy to NOT work with people who do not value what I have to offer. I do have my commission in my letter of agreement and I stick to it.
Vicente, sorry to hear about your situation. We all break our own rules sometimes, especially when we like the people.
#25 by Joseph on May 20, 2010 - 3:06 pm
A lot of people think “markup” is a gouge because they don’t really understand it, and the reason they don’t is because very few ever take the time to explain it to them. If I go to an appliance store and buy a stove for $2000 that the retailer got at wholesale for $1000, then his markup is $1000. Because it’s not been properly explained to them, people tend to think $1000 is the profit in this scenario, but as you all know, it’s not. The retailer has a building he pays for, electricity, building maintenance fees, taxes, and all the other expenses we could enumerate. What’s left, if anything, is his profit on that sale.
#26 by Joseph on May 20, 2010 - 3:07 pm
I think part of the problem interior designers have is not being more forthcoming about what they expect to be paid for their services. If I pay someone to design a kitchen for me, and he says, “It’s two thousand for the design fee for the kitchen,” I would expect to pay that. But then he will go on to insist on a kickback from the cabinetmaker and the appliance supplier and so forth. Personally, if the interior designer does not design the cabinetry, I’m not really sure what he brings to that particular party. But when, as so often the case, he insists on a kickback from the cabinetmaker, then the person who actually does that work must either take less for the job or increase his fee. Either way it is information that is intended to be withheld from the client, so if the client subsequently finds out that he can go directly to the cabinetmaker and get the same work for less, he will be inclined to want to do this.
A lot of people think “markup” is a gouge because they don’t really understand it, and the reason they don’t is because very few ever take the time to explain it to them. If I go to an appliance store and buy a stove for $2000 that the retailer got at wholesale for $1000, then his markup is $1000. Because it’s not been properly explained to them, people tend to think $1000 is the profit in this scenario, but as you all know, it’s not. The retailer has a building he pays for, electricity, building maintenance fees, taxes, and all the other expenses we could enumerate. What’s left, if anything, is his profit on that sale.
Perhaps interior designers should be completely upfront with their fee schedule. I don’t know what people charge for this work, so I’ll just make up some numbers. Perhaps they should say, “It’s two thousand for me to design the kitchen. Because it takes me time to coordinate with the cabinetmaker, that’s another five hundred. It also takes time for me to pick out the proper appliances, and the fee for that is five hundred.” And so forth. But if that is what you actually intend to charge for your services, and if you are completely honest about everything you charge for your services, then clients can make an informed choice as to whether they want to pay those fees. And those who agree to those fee schedules will be inclined to let the interior designer make all the choices.
I think Shakespeare was right. You end up with a very tangled weave whenever you practice to deceive.
#27 by Details and Design on May 23, 2010 - 5:35 pm
I have been here many times but more in our showroom and less with design clients. I try to give them a “package” deal so that the more they get from me in terms of products, then the better pricing. This is a win/win for my business and the client because is a bigger sale for me…and a bigger discount for the client…AND the sweetest part is that we are overseeing the entire process. Designers who do not have showrooms or access to some of the products directly..then they may have a tougher time with this type of process.
I now even use my own general contractor on remodels. More responsibility but less headaches and the job gets executed as we envisioned, on time and with less mishap. When a contractor is involved in new construction, I cannot use my own subs except I insist on my custom cabinetry or I do not do the job. This is just too critical to the end result and I am fortunate enough to be in a position to turn down work…this month anyway..next month may be working at Waffle House..who knows??
But, I can point them to many clients who will say..”yes yes do it this way..she is sooo right” and that helps quite a bit to have that testimonial. I am just relieved on this very day…to know that other designers have similiar issues and love the dialogue..including info from potential consumers. what a great thread!! Thank you!
#28 by Mary on February 17, 2011 - 3:52 pm
Anyone who thinks for a split second that designers should have to justify their compensation by divulging their sources or costs, has got incredible nerve! It is not the client’s place to decide what compensation the designer deserves, from where it should come or how she should create her business model. It is certainly not “deceitful” for such information to be proprietary. If you do not trust or respect the profession and are not willing to pay what a designer charges, then do it yourself and find your own contractors. Good luck with your results, btw
.
#29 by John Christmas on April 1, 2011 - 1:40 am
Ah the power of intuition!
Intuition is a spiritual faculty and does not explain, but simply points the way. – Florence Scovel Shinn
Instinct is the nose of the mind. – Madame De Girardin
Trust your own instinct. Your mistakes might as well be your own, instead of someone else’s. – Billy Wilder