I received an email from EM and I wanted to share it with you all:
Dear Mr. Wolf,
As the “EM” mentioned in your most recent post, I would like to clarify my post that you quoted. If I remember correctly, a woman wrote in saying that she was a decorator and worked out of her home, and was happy with the 20% markup she charged. In response, you told her that you didn’t see how she could be profitable with anything less than 30%. My thinking was that if she worked out of her home with no employees, she had no overhead, so her 20% was quite robust. By contrast, you have (I believe) enormous overhead what with payroll taxes, NYC rent, travel, so I could understand a larger markup. If a decorator who worked out of their home with no overhead charged the
same as one with a more professional office, I would, frankly, think they are overpriced. As I am sure you understand, margins are only one piece of a business’s financial success. The other very important
component is cash flow–ergo, if the decorator who wrote in was, as she claimed, making enough money to cover her expenses plus profit, I didn’t agree with your advice to charge a higher percentage.
I called myself the “Befuddled Future Client” because I am trying to budget for a decorator’s services in about 5 years. In response to a few queries I have sent out, I have been told that 1) no designer would do one room, because it would never give them the enough photographs for a magazine spread, that 2) no designer would work with a client who had a small collection of fine art and antiques because it wouldn’t allow them the necessary creativity they required, and 3) no designer would ever agree to be paid for a master plan to be executed over a period of time because of the same reasons mentioned in #1.
As someone who studied architecture in Italy, I have an enormous degree of respect for architects, designers, decorators, and artists. Yes, I agree that they are “worth it.” Unfortunately, without a dollar amount attached to that worth–not just a percentage–I cannot budget appropriately to hire one. The big magazines, as you know, never ever show prices. Many designers’ goods are “to the trade”, also with no prices attached. And so I (and many other people, I believe) really have no idea just how much it costs to hire a quality professional. (At least I have enough sense not to believe everything I see on HGTV and the various Sunday Decorator Blogs.)
I enjoy your blog tremendously. All the best,
-EM
Vicente Responds:
Dear EM -
I’m glad my blog provides readers with a platform where we can discuss these things – and I’m glad you’re a regular reader and contributor!
A few things: Nobody can tell you how much you should spend. You have a set budget for a space and the simple maths is that a designer charges a percentage on purchases. Do you want to go with a designer who charges a fee or one who doesn’t. It’s pretty simple to figure out how much a designer is worth.
Your comment about designers not being willing to design only one room? That is not the case and I think that most designers that I know in New York city would do one room as part of a continuous process of doing a house. I’m currently doing a guestroom suite as the first room in a house and we’re only starting work on the rest of it down the line. Many designers, if you pay them for their services, would come up with an overall plan and as you start working on the project bit by bit you’ll have a roadmap of sorts. Nobody is going to design a whole house on spec, but if you pay them a retainer or a fee, they will design it and as your finances become available, you’ll know you’re on track with what the project should be.
A designer would probably love to work with a wonderful collection of art and antiques – it’s only going to make for a better job. I don’t know who these designers are and what information you gave them from which they drew their conclusions, but in my experience, I would disagree with your statements on all three points mentioned.
In my opinion, what somebody’s overheads are has nothing to do with what they should charge. Is it to say that if you have a low overhead you should charge less? As a business person, we all try to keep our overheads as low as possible. Do departmentstores get to charge less because their rent is lower than boutiques? Or should a doctor who sees patients from his home be cheaper than one who has a consultation room?
I think these beliefs are not unique to you, though. These are some of the misconceptions that exist for those of us are who are in the industry. I still believe that, as professionals, we cannot sell ourselves cheap, whatever our overheads are. How are you going to leave that stage if you’re not making money? It’s out in the marketplace, if people feel that your services are worth it, they will pay. We cannot sell ourselves cheap. It’s better for the industry and better for the designer. The service you are selling is worth every penny.
Any comments from other readers?
#1 by Cynthia on July 8, 2010 - 12:23 pm
Vicente, I agree absolutely with what you’ve said here. I’m surprised that EM was given such erroneous information on all three points. What designer would NOT love to start designing from a collection of art and antiques? That, to me, is the first step in creating a truly personal space for a client – include the beautiful objects they already have and love.
I’m not really surprised there are still designers who refuse to do a single room, or create a master plan from which to proceed long-term. It seems they may be the ones who value short-term versus long-term relationships. EM needs to keep looking until a better fit is found.
Your advise is spot on regarding budget. I tell clients “I can tell you what things cost, but only you can decide how much to spend”. Candid conversations on budget issues are critical early in the design process, and essential throughout any project.
There is no one-size-fits-all pricing scheme in our industry. Different areas of the country simply cost more to run a business. My own overhead certainly costs less than yours, but I don’t base my pricing on that. As with many businesses, the market determines the pricing. Were I to drop my rates, I might attract more clients, but below a certain point, the value of my time (to myself and my family) becomes the gauge. This is, to a great extent, an “intellectual capital” business. And in most industries, intellectual capital is not free, nor deserving of being devalued/discounted.
Vicente – thank you for being so open and offering a forum for this type of discussion.
#2 by Toni on July 8, 2010 - 12:32 pm
I couldn’t agree more with what you and Cynthia have said. The responsibillity lies with the client to search for a designer that is right for them. Designers all differ (as people do) so one can not generalise like this.
#3 by EM on July 8, 2010 - 12:47 pm
I wish to the Designer God that the Washington DC Design Center would offer a series of educational talks to the public regarding all of these things, with a focus on how to develop a good working relationship with a designer, and some basics on raw cost. High end magazines never show prices, so for quality goods that are to the trade only, well…most people really have no idea how much they cost. Me included. I can only tell you the price of things sold at auction.
With respect to department stores versus boutiques, I believe there is a difference between them (with a focus on goods sold) and designers (with a focus on services sold). Also, boutiques do have more flexibility with prices, even if they don’t advertise it. On a related note, Walmart is a good example of how a big-box store regulates profit–when a store is no longer able to meet their margins, they CLOSE the store. But this is a discussion related to retail business models.
Lastly, yes, the market determines the pricing. But the way a business is run determines its profitability. To repeat what I said in response to the post from two days ago, a higher markup comes with, to my mind, more services (namely, the ability to execute a project). This is the major advantage of (IMHO) hiring a firm over an individual. And I would pay a premium for that. If an individual without the firm to manage all aspects of the project charged the same as the full-service firm, I would be inclined to think they are overpriced.
#4 by Jose on July 8, 2010 - 12:56 pm
Dear Vicente
I once heard a different concept approach to compensation. It basically applies to whole jobs and would not apply to EM’s one room makeover. If designers have the ability to enhance the value of the property they are working on, shouldn’t they be able to charge a percentage on the actual value of the property? A new flat fee concept.
#5 by Veronika Miller CEO Modenus on July 8, 2010 - 1:02 pm
Vincente and Cynthia,
I absolutely agree with your opinions on EM having received very poor advice indeed on what designers would and would not accept as a minimum work scope. It is essential to work with client’s art or other collectible items and of course designers would be happy to develop a long term one-space-at-a-time plan. In fact, developing a long term plan and executing elements as funding is available will allow a coherent design and almost certainly will save the client a lot of money.
But I want to come back to the mark up question which I have found to be a very misunderstood topic.
To begin with designers should earn what they are worth through hourly rates and mark up on product sales and worth is most often determined by what the market will allow. And in this new environment there should be an emphasis on re-establishing a fair hourly rate for the Intellectual Property and Project Management skills of the designer, since product mark up can become difficult in an environment that is becoming more and more open to “all offers”. Your suggestion to the decorator above to have at least a 30% markup is only fair since it really equates to a 23% profit margin, where the decorator’s 20% mark up only reflects a 16% profit margin and that, really is quite low.
A no-overhead design firm will likely always be able to charge less than a large firm and if the client is happy then that’s all that matters. This is why we are so often taught “not every client is your client” . Plenty of room for everyone if they work efficiently, profitable and with an open mind to new ways of doing business, even if it means doing ONLY one room for a client.
#6 by mandy on July 8, 2010 - 1:12 pm
I think Vicente hit the nail on the head with the doctor’s office analogy.
EM, if you have a 5 year plan you have a lot of time to do some price comparisions yourself. Not all tile stores, fabric stores, furniture stores are to the trade. If you live in a big city there will be plenty of stores that are also open to the public.
You could make a list of your rooms to be redone, then for all these rooms list all the components you think you will need – fixtures, furniture, accessories etc. and start to get some prices of your own. It’s not perfect but it will start to give you an idea about what goods will cost and what you think you can afford.
#7 by Heather on July 8, 2010 - 1:13 pm
I am wondering why there has been no mention the ‘value’ of experience and capability to guarantee work with trusted suppliers. There is absolute value in a designer being able to supply these aspects, this often has nothing to do with direct overhead of the designer.
This discussion is very interesting all around!
#8 by Ann Marie on July 8, 2010 - 1:18 pm
This is a great discussion! Thanks EM for posting such good and thoughtful questions/concerns, and thank you Vicente for not only the platform to have these discussions, but also for your honest responses and information.
I don’t know who you’ve been talking to EM, but I agree with Cynthia that you need to keep interviewing designers to find a good fit. Sounds to me like you’ve been talking to some that think they are all that and a bag of chips! In other words, they think perhaps a little too much of themselves. It is always OK to turn down projects that are too small to bring in profit for the size of your firm, or that are not a good fit for your specialties and services. We do it in the general contracting business all the time. However, in good faith we always try to provide those prospective clients with names and recommendations of other GC firms that would be better suited to their projects.
In the end, every business owner and every individual looking for design services, has to decide for themselves the price or budget that best fits their needs and leads to the desired goals.
#9 by Gary Nelling on July 8, 2010 - 4:31 pm
EM – I’m glad that you are pressing ahead with the question YOU want answered, and sorry I couldn’t answer it more directly myself. I sympathize with the designers here, but also with your point of view. Like you, I am a shopper who wants to know what the market charges for any good or service before plunking my money down. With the retail sales of anything: builder homes, cars, clothes and groceries, costs are posted publicly and you can make cost-benefit value judgments. The same is true for some services like a college education, hotel rooms or real estate sales, but fee or commission information for design professionals is not so readily available to my knowledge. I would be surprised to find a survey of architect’s fees available from the AIA or designers commissions from the ASID, because this information is considered top-secret to be protected from the competition, with rare exceptions like Vicente Wolf.
I think it is reasonably argued that design professionals do themselves a disservice by not making public their fee or commission structures. However, efforts to coordinate on this topic by architects were quashed by the federal government decades ago as being in restriction of free trade and open competition, so being open on the subject is on a case-by-case basis, which means the general approach probably won’t change soon.
I know that there’s a great range of design talent, experience and fees or commissions around the country and your city. Unfortunately, I think you will have to do your own due diligence, though I think it will be worth it to you. In some cases, fee or commission rates will vary with location and overhead, but I would be surprised if you find the linear correlation you seek, because it’s a matter of the buyer and seller establishing agreement on value. I am also sure there are designers who will prepare a master plan and do successive projects. I would! I remember your questions, but don’t think anyone meant to put you off your desired process.
The design professions are crowded because the work is intellectually challenging, artistic, personal and fun, but there has often been more architects and designers than work even in good times, and that produces competition and bargains. But be careful of people who don’t value their work sufficiently. You obviously have a great desire to go down this road, and I hope you get the information you need to do so. And when you do, please share it with us! – Gary
#10 by ardel on July 8, 2010 - 5:00 pm
i understand the sentiments of both the client and the designer. as an interior designer myself, i sometimes feel that my work is under appreciated by my clients because they think that it’s an easy job. at the same time, i don’t blame clients for having these misconceptions because they are not properly informed about such details of the professional practice.
i think key to this issue on design fees is the professional organization of interior designer/decorators/architects. i believe it’s part of their responsibility to inform the public about the average rates for the design fees in the industry and the possible factors (education, experience, specialization, awards) that may cause any deviation from the average figure. by clearing this, the public is protected and, at the same time, the value of the designers’ services is recognized and appropriately compensated.
#11 by AK on July 8, 2010 - 5:20 pm
(wow, is this ever timely, I literally was writing about this same topic today.)
EM,
I’m going to agree with others that whomever you spoke with is a poor fit for your project, but that your project itself is perfectly fine.
Not every project a designer creates (no matter who or how famous the designer) garners a magazine spread. Although good publicity is great, I would say that if someone is more interested in their publicity than your project, they’re not the right designer for you. Your designer needs to be invested in your project, not in what the possible (maybe, if the moon and stars align just right) publicity angle is after the fact. However I find it amusing to note that in today’s economy, I wouldn’t be surprised at a one room magazine layout, either.
As to the art and antiques issue, I wish I could say I’ve never heard anything so ridiculous, but well, I have, so I can’t. But the fact remains that your project should be about you, your needs, your life, your house. Your designer is there to help *you*, by using what they know about design to give you what you will ultimately love to live in. It’s not about trying to shove your life into their personal creative showcase.
While I’m not surprised that you were told that “no designer would be interested in creating a master plan”, I find this thinking to be short sighted. In fact most of the time, whenever I’ve done one room for a client, that’s exactly what comes of it, because you see one room done, and then the adjacent rooms look like they need a redesign also in order to keep the entire house looking cohesive. Master planning is good long term planning, and when it comes to your home, good long term relationships are often very important (see: good electricians, good plumbers, good designers, good landscapers..).
This is your project, your home, and your life. The right designer for you will be able to put that part first. In the end, the right person for you will long term, save you money regardless, because you will be getting greater personal value out of whatever you’re spending.
#12 by Elizabeth on July 8, 2010 - 5:45 pm
EM-
As a designer who has only been working for a few years, I can tell you that there are many designers out there who would be more than happy to work just on one room with the hope of building a relationship with you.
As for the discussion on why the costs and fees may vary widely and are not discussed, there was an article in Domino last year on finding a designer and what they charge. You can also google that or go to the ASID website for general information. Just like any consultant, however, individuals can charge what they wish and don’t want to advertise their rates publicly because you don’t choose a designer based on price – it’s not long-distance phone service.No one wants to lower the value of their work by putting a $19.99/hour billboard up! And the value of any product is not lessened or raised by what is happening in the economy or in their industry. Time and labor is what it is. However, if you contact the designer directly, they will tell you what they charge and you have the time and the intelligence to be doing that type of extensive research (i.e reaching out to many designers in your area).
I run a furniture showroom and I can tell you from first hand experience that it is very frustrating that businesses with no overhead or much more capital (online retailers and big box stores) charge less for the same exact furniture and lighting pieces that small businesses do. People are always looking for a cheaper way to do things and that is not necessarily the best way. There are now websites and stores where you can purchase things that were previously “to the trade only” and this has hurt the industry. Just because you can figure out how to do something on your own doesn’t mean you should. Hopefully people will always pay for expertise and vision. Designers come in to my showroom on a regular basis and have their clients sit in furniture and choose pieces and then find a way to get it somewhere else with a bigger markup for themselves. People come in and shop and then look for the item online. What they do not understand is that they are going to run the stores and small businesses out of business and then will have no way to see pieces in person before purchasing. They will have no customer service help or guarantee of quality. If something is broken or fails after a short period of time they will have no recourse. They will not have the benefit of a human being who can look at their home or style and help them make the right choices.
I advise you to not choose a designer based on price, as many here in this discussion have said, but on the ease you feel with that designer’s manner of dealing with you. If you feel that you can build a respectful relationship and they are upfront with you about the way they work, and they have the contacts and education (either self taught or through school) to pull a beautiful look together for you, then it is worth what your budget is. You should have the number in your head before you speak with someone, and not let a bargain pull you in the direction of a certain person. Realize that much work is done behind the scenes and in the mind of the designer – it is not just tangible products you can hold in your hand. You are saving for five years to do this, so it should be worth it to you to do the work to find someone you trust.
Good luck!
Elizabeth
#13 by The Countrypolitan on July 8, 2010 - 6:52 pm
To EM… I think the error in your comparing an independent designer charging the same fee as that of a firm with several employees is this:
When you are getting the same end results regardless of who is assigned to the tasks… an individual or a team, it requires the same amount of work steps to get to that point… . So just because an independent designer does not have all the “mouths to feed” as a larger firm, that designer is wearing many hats and doing the same amount of work to produce the same results.
Additionally, a firm with several employees will be able to take on a greater number of projects than a single individual… therefore, the volume of work to income produced is proportionate at the same fee scale when comparing an individual to a company with several employees. ~Terri
#14 by todd haley on July 8, 2010 - 8:00 pm
as i have said it before and i will say it again – if you tally up the costs of the canvas and the paints/supplies to do a painting it is nominal compared to the cost of the finished piece – so at the end-of-the-day what are you really paying for: someone’s talent/experience/point of view and hopefully you have an emotional connection to the artist’s work. likewise it does not matter where the artist chooses to execute the piece – whether it be a studio in chelsea or their studio in their home. a good designer should be as much as artist as business person – i would not try to offer ross bleckner the cost of the materials involved only to buy one of his pieces.
#15 by EM on July 9, 2010 - 12:00 pm
I did not say, nor will I ever say, that I would only offer cost to a designer. I said that because I have difficulty determining how much things cost, I cannot calculate the expected markup, which means I cannot determine the final cost. I also said that there is a tremendous difference between 20% and 35%. Given that not every designer is a good fit for every project, I was hoping for a little more input from the design community as to how I can ask more intelligent questions to determine if we are a good fit. I assume that the 15 percentage points are the value of a good fit, which as everyone here has said, may not have anything to do with education, experience, firm size, etc.
Lastly, my reluctance to price out objects as a way of budgeting stems from the fact that, to me, a room’s furniture is of secondary importance. Some of my favorite spaces have minimal things in it. Of utmost importance are the room’s proportions, light, flooring, ceiling, etc. This is, to me, the true worth of a designer, one who can carve a raw space into a diamond.
#16 by The Countrypolitan on July 9, 2010 - 4:36 pm
EM, you cannot assume that the 15% increase reflects value and a good fit… simply because some designers under rate themselves and some designers over rate themselves. You will have to do your own homework to determine who is or isn’t a good fit…. for instance: do you like their work, have you checked their references, do your personalities mesh, what about your time frame expectations,…
The more you can be exact about what you are wanting and what you expect will help the designer in helping you set a budget. If a designer has to determine by trial and error what makes a client happy, it will add to the amount of time and cost. As much as we like to believe that we can read the minds of our clients, it is typically not the case…
Since a designer has no way of knowing how a client will ultimately respond or cooperate in the process, it leaves a large grey area in pin pointing the exact cost of a project when a designer’s fees are hourly based. If I propose a flat fee to a client (plus mark-up), I am basing it on what is a reasonable expectation of my time and value for a specified length of time… if it goes over the allotted amount of time, then I impose an hourly fee on the client. Otherwise, a client can drag out a project into eternity with little compensation. ~Terri
#17 by Sally@DivineDistractions on July 10, 2010 - 4:14 am
I own a design firm and employ 3 people and two interns. I have a significant monthly overhead. I cannot assign an arbitrary percentage and expect it to miraculously cover my costs. A 20% over cost across the board will not pay for expenses much less provide me with a salary. We are always trying to elevate our clientele because we know that it takes as much effort and skill on our part to stay on budget on a low profit job as it does a high profit job….sometimes even more when we are trying to save the client money. When I made the decision to move my office out of my home, my business mgr and I calculated the cost of doing business and then worked backwards to deterimine our hourly rate. It is suicide to do it backwards and pray that you can cover expenses. I know how many hours I need to bill to break even. If the hourly rate is out of scale with the marketplace, then we have to cut expenses to level it out. Please don’t set a percentage and hope. Back up your rates with solid numbers and work like crazy to get the clients you need to make it worth it. And Em, I love to do long range plans and single room projects, but I always charge enough to cover my time.
#18 by Catherine on July 10, 2010 - 2:51 pm
To EM…Your comment about The Washington Design Center holding educational talks for the public about how to go about working with a designer is an excellent idea. As a designer who regularly uses the DC Design Center as a primary resource, I can tell you that whenever talks or seminars are held there for designers on the subject of running a business, it’s standing room only. The topic of how to charge for services, be profitable and provide value to clients is a subject everyone is keenly interested in, but platforms for discussion about it are few and far between. Vicente’s blog and his willingness to discuss this topic openly is a rarity and is much appreciated by us all. I’m not sure if the Design Center has or would consider similar seminars for clients and consumers, but I think it would be a great idea. I will be there next week and will ask about it.
In a post earlier this year on this subject, I outlined how I have structured my business to address concerns similar to yours. I charge by the hour, and do not mark up any materials ordered by my firm (fabrics, furniture, wallcoverings, tile, etc.), and do not mark up services provided by trades such as painters, upholsterer, drapery workrooms, etc. I chose to work this way long ago, as I believe adding a mark up can create a conflict of interest in choosing products or services for a client. My clients know and can trust that if I recommend a more expensive product it is because I think it is the best choice for the project in terms of quality, esthetics, value, etc., not because I will earn a greater profit.
This also eliminates the concern for the client that they will have to replace everything they own in order to engage me to take on their project. Obviously when someone chooses to use me to design their house they like my style, but it’s very important to me that the house reflects them, only better! (Wasn’t that a hair color slogan???)
My billing is very transparent, and clients always know the cost of items I have purchased for them, whether from to the trade or retail sources. I bill for all time spent on the client’s project, from meetings with the clients and all associated trades to preparing and following up on orders, deliveries and installations.
I agree with AK, Elizabeth and Todd Haley on many points about what services designers are actually providing to clients. I don’t look at my business as one of selling merchandise, but rather as the service of providing the creative expertise, project management, materials and many fabrication services that are all necessary to create an end result that matches or exceeds the client’s expectations.
#19 by Decor Arts Now on July 10, 2010 - 5:57 pm
This is really a comment for EM. I am a “small” designer (never published, no big name), but I have to throw in my 2 bits to say your 3 points are way off base. One room, no problem; Master plan, no problem and as for fine art and antiques–a dream.
I give everything my best shot, and until the downturn was pleased with my profits. I work out of my home also, and since I am relatively new at this, I intentionally charge a bit lower than someone like Vicente (he is def. worth more than me!!! Duh.). So I charge a small design fee for my initial plan (usually between $500 and $1500 depending on scope of project) and 25% on my cost for purchases. I NEVER mark things up. Many other designers charge similarly. NOt sure why that is confusing to you….
Lynn
#20 by Linda Merrill on July 11, 2010 - 7:11 pm
I’m not sure what I can add to the conversation other than to suggest, EM, that you focus more on what the outcome is and the process of getting there. Only you can establish your own budget. If you vet a designer, like their work, get good references and enjoy their company, and they are open to taking your job for what it is (one room, maybe plan for future, working with what you own), then you should hire them. If they can do the job you want within your budget, what does it matter what percentage of what you paid is product and what is commission/fee? The percentage is only important in relation to the actual budget dollar. A living room can cost $10,000, $50,000, $100,000 and on up. Does the designer working at 20% of $50,000 ($10,000) have less value than the designer working at 35% commission of $10,000 ($3,500)? Did the $50K room take five times more time and creativity than the $10K room? No, likely not. So, as you’re striving to figure out how much you will pay to have a profession design job, just start with what you are willing to pay (the value you place on the room in concert with what you can afford to pay) and have that frank discussion with the designers you interview. They will tell you if your budget is reasonable.
#21 by details and design on July 12, 2010 - 2:35 am
I agree with LInda Merrill. You should “vet” your designer first and foremost, establish a relationship, and set a realistic budget range..discuss with the designer if it is reasonable based on your parameters and then let them do their work.
We are a full service design firm and cannot be compared to a person who works from home. Our level of service and execution could never be attained from one person working at home and thus the overhead is higher…and for my clientele, apparently worth it. I have never lost a job to someone who works from home. Accordingly, all of our subs and contractors are fully licensed and insured. The last thing you want is someone working on your home who is not. Trust me on this one.
The point is this: any designer is “worth” what the client will pay for their services over the long haul. Often, many designers undercharge for their time or do not accurately keep track..this is our biggest problem. If anyone knows of a great time manager program or resource, please let me know! ~~Cheryl
#22 by todd haley on July 12, 2010 - 5:30 am
em – let’s not forget that every potential client is not always a good fit for the designer – you seem a bit too obsessed about the mark-up/final cost etc – before you even weigh in on if you and the designer align with your “point of view”. if someone calls my office and immediately shops me based on fees – i know that it’s not going to be a good fit. if they have seen my work and something about it resonates with them then it is an entirely different scenario. i liken it to shopping for a suit (or evening dress) – you try it on and see how the fit is and how the garment makes you feel before you look at the price tag – and if it makes you feel and look like the proverbial “million bucks” and cost anything less than that – well then you’ve found yourself a true bargain.
#23 by mandy on July 12, 2010 - 1:10 pm
Hi EM,
Sorry I’m late to the game and not sure if you’re still reading comments. I mentioned pricing out furniture, fittings etc. yourself only because you said “Many designers’ goods are ‘to the trade’, also with no prices attached”. As I said, this is very easy to get around.
#24 by todd haley on July 12, 2010 - 11:33 pm
mandy i don’t understand what you mean by “very easy to get around” to-the-trade simply means that – i.e. wholesale pricing to a design professional. i pay my vendors their prices w/o trying to “get around” them to get a lower cost on goods/services. i doubt that neither you or em have any idea of how much work even goes into having a throw pillow made for a client – shopping for the fabric/checking stock/reserving the goods/getting a cfa/getting a quote on the pillow factoring in the repeat of the fabric and it’s width and if it needs to be backed or not – and all that before you even quote the client – sorry if i used some terms that are to-the-trade – maybe you can at least you can “get around” those.
#25 by mandy on July 13, 2010 - 1:30 pm
Hi Todd – maybe I used the wrong choice of words (or you didn’t read my earlier comment). By ‘get around’ I was referencing an earlier comment I made where I suggested that EM go to some stores that are not solely ‘to the trade’ to get a SENSE of what things cost. This is at least one aspect of her project where she can start to put together her own (very) loose budget before she has hired her design professional.
I mentioned that this is not a perfect solution but for people who have no idea how much a sofa of varying quality, or a slab of marble costs this will be a bit of an education.
BTW I’m a commercial interior designer so I know exactly what goes into all aspects of a project. I think it’s good for a client to do some investigating on their own for their own sake and for the sake of the project. I find that generally people are very surprised at how much quality products cost. If they come into the project with a reasonable sense about what things costs it makes the process much easier.
#26 by Tammy Dalton on July 13, 2010 - 3:45 pm
This is a great and timely conversation as our industry (interior design) has changed so much in the last 20 years and continues to change at a break-neck pace. The general public (our clients and future clients) have more information and access to product at their fingertips now than they know how to interpret. I understand where EM is coming from- she wants a sense of what things cost and wants to know what to expect. I agree with all the comments that have been made, but I think Linda Merrill really nailed it.
EM, the process has to begin with you- it’s all about you; what you want, what you expect, and how much you are willing/can afford to pay. Interior Design is a complicated business- it’s an art, but also a practical business; we build intimate relationships with our clients because everything we do is tied in to their lifestyles and emotions, but there is tangible product involved in making a project happen that is not as simple as someone making and selling widgets, and it seems that you know this already.
Whether a client has a room with a budget of $5000 or $50,000, the effort and skill required to design that room to the client’s satisfaction is the same. But knowing whether it’s a $5000 budget or a $50,000 budget makes all the difference. This is critical information that any designer needs to know, as it effects every aspect of planning the space and specifying product, and ultimately how the designer calculates their fees as well. Focus on the end result, and commucinate fully and honestly with the designers you interview. It’s going to come down to personality, finding someone you feel comfortable with based on their experience level, references, and how well you relate to one another. That way you will feel more at ease with the money you’ve decided to spend and will value the results regardless of your budget.
I do think the information you received during your preliminary inquiries is unfortunate and not true. I think it would be a great idea if the design centers around the country would take up the mantle to host discussions like you suggested, and thank you to Vicente for allowing this forum!
#27 by todd haley on July 13, 2010 - 3:55 pm
mandy if a client has a budget in mind – part of the designer’s responsibility is to educate them on what things cost and also on how to best allocate their funds for the project – if you do commercial work then i doubt your clients are shopping you – but most likely you get several bids to present to them on items and advise them. the old adage says it the best “you get what you pay for -”
#28 by mandy on July 13, 2010 - 4:47 pm
Hi Todd,
I work in commercial but I am familiar with res as well. Agree about educating the client but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a client doing research themselves. I think some designers deliberatly try to make things seem much more complicated than they are, creating a false sense of mystery about the process and costs. Maybe this stems from insecurity.
In any event, I was simply making a suggestion to EM about one aspect of her dilema (finding out costs for furniture, fixtures etc.) in order to allow her to gain some control over the process since she clearly feels overwhelmed and confused.
#29 by Cynthia on July 15, 2010 - 1:50 am
I am late to the game on this one, but I am, in fact, the designer to which EM is referring to in her question (who recently started her business – the one who charges 20% markup and an hourly fee). I did ask Vincente what his opinion was, and he was kind enough to post it as a separate topic of discussion with his recommendations.
With that out of the way, I want to say that Vincente is correct that I should be charging more than my 20% markup because I do not make as much money as I should be. I do work out of my home, but what does that matter? I still have expenses, insurance, marketing costs, childcare, etc. I understand that perception is reality, but what if I was a trust fund baby who could afford to have a fancy office/staff, but was a crappy designer?
I have clients who value my opinion, as I patiently help them push their comfort zone to create living spaces that they love, but would not be able to achieve on their own.
I do charge an hourly fee, but I spend more time on each project then I charge for (as Vincente points out). Most of my clients have budgets between $7,000-15,000 which could be for one room or three. But they may go to Ethan Allen for a $2,000 sofa if what I source for them (in the same design) is closer to the $3,000-$4,000 range (minimum), and they want to make their dollars stretch as far as possible (yes, I counsel them on spending money on the big “heirloom pieces”). So 2 things: I can’t realistically charge $4,000-$5,000 for my hours on top of the $7,000 budget, but I have to make more money then the 20 or 30% markup, esp. if the client goes to EA for a sofa. I realize that I could charge a fee for that sofa, but business wise that doesn’t seem prudent when the democratization of design is exactly why many people are now reaching out to designers/decorators for help.
See this post as proof:
http://littlegreennotebook.blogspot.com/2010/06/how-much-would-you-pay-decorator.html
So, I am now thinking of charging a flat fee for each job (on top of my markup, which I may increase), depending on the scope of the project – PITA clause included. At the end of the project, I want my clients to feel happy with the physical space, but also with the fees charged, and this solution may reduce the “opaqueness” that some clients feel when the final bills are delivered.
As in the journey of life, we are all adapting and growing as needed. Many thanks, Vincente, for being the arbiter of thoughtful discussions!
Happy Summer,
Cyn (Cynthia from PA)
#30 by Cynthia on July 15, 2010 - 2:26 am
I jusr read again my comment/question and I stated that I was happy to have 5 current clients whose work grows as each room gets finished, not happy that I have a 20% mark-up. Just wanted to clarify….
Thanks!
#31 by Christine Schwalm Design on July 15, 2010 - 10:06 pm
The beauty of design, like any service or product in a free market system, is that you can charge whatever you’d like. The hitch is finding a price that people are actually willing to pay for your goods or service. If don’t price intelligently you will go out of business because 1. you don’t charge enough to cover your costs (which includes a salary) or 2.you lose business to your competitors.
#32 by Uma on July 17, 2010 - 2:41 am
I am late to comment, but wanted to speak from the experience of having been a solo designer working from home, and now having my own showroom and design firm with staff. I do not think a solo designer should charge less than a firm. A firm with an office and staff can generally handle more projects, and projects of a larger scale than a solo designer. The solo designer has to limit the projects he/she takes on so they do still need to be paid appropriately to compensate for the extra time they put in handling all aspects of the work themselves. The client also gets a more personal experience with all details handled by one person. That is worth just as much as working with a larger firm. The key is finding the right designer to work with, regardless of how they are set up. Best of luck to all.
Be well,
Uma